Interview With: Pauline Parker Miller

Partial Transcript: MW: My name is Miriam Wright and I'm interviewing Mrs. Pauline Miller about her father and the Chatham Coloured All Stars.

PPM: Now, you better say Pauline Parker Miller.

MW: Pauline Parker Miller, yes, yes, that's good. Okay.

Now, for the record, can you give us your father's name?

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Partial Transcript: PPM: Joseph Harold Parker. His mother lived on King Street East, way down by the water fountain.

MW: Right

PPM: Isn't that what that is?

CAH: Yes ma'am.

PPM: And the freight trains come that…’cause I get it out here.

CAH: Wasn't he Happy...

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Partial Transcript: But he was called Happy Parker.

MW: Do you know how he got that nickname?

PPM: No, not exactly. Well, I don't know if it was because the baseball boys and that. We had two American baseball come from Detroit and stay with us.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Maybe can I get back to your dad? Was he born in Chatham?

PPM: Yeah, that. King Street East.

MW: In that house

MW: And do you happen to know what year he was born around?

PPM: No. He was 57 when he died.

MW: Okay

PPM: My mother died—she lived a little longer than he. She was 64.

CAH: What year did your daddy die?

PPM: I'd have to look that up. I can't remember.

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Partial Transcript: PPM: His mother lived in an old house. Didn't have welfare in those days.

MW: No

PPM: Not in my day.

MW: Right

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Partial Transcript: PPM: You had to go to the police station and then they'd give you food and tell you where you go get it. Before there was any pensions or anything.

MW: Right

PPM: People didn't have anything. You just had to do without. See?

MW: Yeah

PPM: In those days

MW: Did he have brothers or sisters?

PPM: No. He had the Franklins were relatives. Remember Carol Ann? Donise. Now Donise married Aunt Tine's niece. Wasn't she a niece?

CAH: Okay

MW: And growing up, do you know how his family made a living? Like do you know anything about that?

PPM: In those days, I don't know.

MW: You don't know; that's fine. Maybe move on to your dad's

PPM: His mother was real old. And them long black dresses. My mother had to clean her up when she moved with us downtown.

MW: Right

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Partial Transcript: PPM: And they only could go to one hotel, you know, in those days.

MW: Which hotel was that?

PPM: And Jewish people owned it.

MW: Right

PPM: And they allowed them to come in and have beer, see

MW: And the rest of them they couldn't go in

PPM: Now that part of King Street is high class.

MW: Right. Yeah, wow.

PPM: They all go there now, to the Merrill to stay—

CAH: That Retro Suites—that's what you're talking about.

MW: Right—I've heard of that place

PPM: When they couldn't go to The Pitt

MW: The Pitt -- of course. The William Pitt Hotel.

PPM: And the Chatham. Is the Chatham still there? The Chatham Hotel?

CAH: No

PPM: Oh it's not?

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Partial Transcript: MW: Can you tell me more of your dad's—who he married?

PPM: No brothers or sisters. My mother

MW: Can you tell me your mother's name?

PPM: Van Dusen

MW: Van Dusen?

PPM: May Van Dusen was her maiden name. And she married Joe Parker.

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Partial Transcript: MW: And how many children did they have?

PPM: Well, there was two of us and we were both adopted, but I didn't know it until after almost, after I was married the first time.

MW: Ohh wow.

PPM: One day I asked my mother, "Don't come in and talk on all that foolishness," she said to me. That was after Hilda married.

MW: Hilda was your sister?

PPM: Yeah. We were both adopted. She's real light. Hilda became a bus driver in Toledo, Ohio. Made it to real high up.

MW: Oh really

PPM: Yeah

MW: That's interesting..

PPM: My mother was real proud of her.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Can you tell us about your dad's barber shop?

PPM: Well that was owned by an American coloured man. And it was Johnson's Pool Room and Barber Shop.

MW: Okay.

PPM: And my dad bought it, but he couldn't keep it, you know.

MW: Right

PPM: And he died at 57. My mother at 64. But they were both adopted. I found out—my cousin told me a lot – Evelyn. Evelyn—Carol Ann?

CAH: She was quite the historian.

PPM: And our kids had no place to go. They tore Industrial School down, did you know that?

CAH: Yes.

PPM: I was kind of sad about that. Like Mr. Gant, you know? They should have had wood that places remained there and put all—see that chair over there [points to a chair]? That's Mr. Gant.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Can you tell us where you lived when you were growing up?

PPM: Colborne Street—over the barbershop, King Street. Next to CPR Hotel.

MW: Right

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Partial Transcript: PPM: We lived over the barber shop. My mother made two bedrooms and they had—years ago they had a dance hall up over the barber shop. And that's where they had all the ballroom dances. For a long time. Until they opened St. John. See they had a lot next to the BME church on Wellington Street. That was our entertainment: to have dances at that lodge downstairs. It was like a ballroom floor. I'll tell you who would—because I was young—and they'd say, "Come on Pauline." Harry Olbey. I can…

CAH: Oh geez

PPM: You know that's way back. He married Blanche Millburn.

CAH: Oh okay

PPM: They had a time, poor things. They were poor. You know, we didn't have relief in them days. You had to go to the police station to get... If you were really starving, in my day.

CAH: Just yeah.

PPM: That was the only place to go.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Can you tell us a little more about your dad? What do you remember about him? What was he like?

PPM: Well, he was a barber. And he tried to buy Johnson's Pool Room and Barber Shop. But he had a pool room and barber shop. See, we were poor in them days. So that's the only place they could go. But he could handle them, you know. My dad did and so did that Mr. Johnson.

MW: Did he have lots of customers?

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Partial Transcript: MW: Did he have lots of customers?

0:09:06.5 Customers from Detroit

PPM: Yes. Now after the riots in Detroit -- they were really bad. They were able to go in the William Pitt. And then the people started coming from Detroit.

MW: Oh that's interesting.

PPM: A lot. Then they'd go to Shrewsbury. That's a village. Not a town or anything.

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Partial Transcript: MW: These would be the 1943 riots? Was it—I think it was 1943?

PPM: Yeah

CAH: Are you talking about the 19...?

MW: There were riots in 1943 so that might be—

PPM: Yeah

MW: So that might be it. Yeah. The earlier ones.

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Partial Transcript: PPM: Yeah. That's why the poor Turner boy was going to be hung. ‘Cause somebody called him the N-word.

MW: Right

PPM: Yeah, you know? And the man accidentally—the policeman told him to get him to get up because it was getting too loud in The Merrill. It was owned by Jewish people, but they'd let them carry on a little bit.

MW: Right

PPM: And when he got outside, that's how that happened. And he hit the policeman, and the policeman's head. I think that's the only policeman we’ve ever had die. See? And Detroit has it all the time.

MW: Yeah

PPM: People dyin'. But a policeman.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Good. Maybe we can switch over and talk about baseball. Again, we know your dad was a manager. Do you want to tell us about your dad's involvement?

PPM: He ran that one year. The boys were really happy about that.

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Partial Transcript: PPM: And they had a tough time with Tupperville.

MW: I bet. Okay.

PPM: Because they were really prejudice. And they called them everything, you know.

MW: Right

PPM: All the names you could think of.

MW: Right

PPM: And he had a time keeping the boys under control.

MW: I'm sure

PPM: Yeah. Trying to keep the two American boys under control and because they only ran with the Judah girls, you know? The baseball boys.

MW: Can you tell us about your dad and the two American boys? Can you tell us how ...

PPM: Well, they stayed with us when we were downtown, lived over the barbershop

MW: Right

PPM: And the third floor was a dance hall. It wasn't a place for—you know, they had that for it to be rented. And he put them up there a couple of times, put beds up there.

MW: This is Donise Washington and Don Tabron

PPM: Mm-hmm

MW: Right

PPM: Now Donise married Aunt Tine’s…what—oh lord? Carol Ann?

CAH: I thought you said her niece?

PPM: Yeah. Married her niece. Mrs. MacFarlane. Yeah, 'cause Mrs. MacFarlane was married to an American man years ago, before my time. Aunt Tine.

CAH: I remember her

MW: Yeah

PPM: Now, who was it that had the child.

CAH: What happened to that other boy? The other young man? If the one married Donise, what happened to the second young man?

PPM: Now one married the Judah girl.

MW: Don Tabron?

PPM: Yeah. Now wait a minute

CAH: So both those American boys married Canadian girls, Mother?

PPM: No, not both of 'em. Just the one.

CAH: Oh

PPM: Ant Tine's niece was from the States. I don't even know her name.

MW: So she was from the States. Okay. But Don Tabron married a Canadian girl.

PPM: Yeah

MW: Okay, good.

CAH: Did they stay in Canada?

PPM: Yeah, they did for a while

MW: For a while, yeah I think they did.

PPM: The Judah girls

MW: But they both went back eventually. They were here for several years.

PPM: I been to Ida's one time. But I think Ida is dead now. I'm not sure.

CAH: Mrs. Brown?

PPM: Yeah.

CAH: Yeah. She passed

PPM: Yeah, she's dead.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Do you ever remember watching them play baseball?

PPM: Oh yes

MW: Oh yeah? Can you tell me about that?

PPM: I watch 'em when they lost and when they win. But Hilda and I—Hilda was more into that. If she was still alive, you could have a lot of news. Cause she'd be gone when we didn't know she was gone someplace. [all laugh] And she was real light you know. She could go any place.

MW: Oh right. Oh wow.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Did they get big crowds?

PPM: Oh yes. And there was always a lot of little fights after a ball game

MW: Yep

PPM: All that. But nobody until the night they pulled the boy out of the Merrill. That's owned by Jewish—now that's one of your best places.

CAH: So now was Tupperville—you said they were bad in Tupperville. Where did they win the championship? What city was it?

PPM: They were out playing ball

CAH: What town was it?

PPM: I can't remember.

MW: Oh. They played in a lot of different places. Like they had a lot of away games

PPM: You'd have to go to Chatham Daily News and get that 'cause I don't want to say something that I'm not sure of.

MW: Sure. But you did hear about times when they had trouble with away games, right?

PPM: Yeah. The newspaper will have all that. And you'll have it right, see?

MW: Yeah.

PPM: I don't want to say.

MW: That's fine. But you heard stories about having rough time with...

PPM: And I can't give you dates on that

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Partial Transcript: PPM: Oh yes. And they were called the N-word and all that and my dad had a time. Especially his two American boys. You callin' them...see? And that made Leonard—and see Leonard's mother was white. Leonard and Carl Harding. Carl didn't stay around long.

MW: Yeah, he left.

PPM: He was real light.

MW: Yeah. Right

PPM: Mr. Harding was a dark man.

MW: The father

PPM: Yeah

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Partial Transcript: MW: Yes. Do you remember when they won the provincial championship? In 1934?

PPM: No. You'd have to get that from the Chatham.

MW: Sure

PPM: 'Cause I might -

MW: You don't remember that one?

PPM: Yeah. I was a young girl

MW: Apparently they had a big parade when they won. Do you remember that?

PPM: They did. I remember that.

MW: Okay, can you tell me about that?

PPM: Well, they were clapping, so, you know? On King Street, you know, coming down King Street? And making so much racket. I thought people went to extremes. But they were so happy.

CAH: That is so nice.

PPM: And the one boy was a relative of Aunt Tine's. So you know that. You know. That made a difference.

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Partial Transcript: PPM: Yes. Well, Chatham was. 'Cause no other team brought it back.

CAH: Right on

PPM: So they brought it back.

MW: They were the first team to win.

CAH: That's huge

PPM: Yeah. It was a big day.

MW: Yeah

PPM: We couldn't go to have our hair done in the shops, you know. Barber shops, you know. That's what made my dad—he just started on his own. Then Dick Davis helped him out. He was another man that learned to barber.

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Partial Transcript: Do you remember any of the other players? Like do you remember them…

PPM: I have to see 'em. I'm sorry

MW: Yeah, you might have to. I can get—say some of the names, like do you remember people like Flat Chase?

PPM: Now the Olbey boy, and Flat Chase, yeah. I know this one. That's Mr. Pryor [looking at a picture of the 1934 Chatham Coloured All-Stars team]

MW: That's Mr. Pryor, yeah.

CAH: That's my grand-dad.

MW: Right! Yes, yes

PPM: Uh huh. And who is this?

MW: That's Gouy Ladd

PPM: I've lost it.

MW: Gouy Ladd

PPM: Yes. It must be. Yeah. Now this?

MW: That's Boomer Harding. Wilfred Harding. And that's Percy.

PPM: Percy Parker.

MW: Now was he related to you?

PPM: No no no. My mother was a Van Dusen my dear. My dad was a Parker. And I don't know much about his mother, see? Just an old woman. We tried to keep her but we couldn't keep her.

CAH: Awww

PPM: And them long dresses. And that's when we lived downtown over the barber shop

CAH: Okay

MW: Right, okay

PPM: But it’s the Merrill that had a big crowd of our people…there's Mr. Pryor there.

MW: Yep, that's Mr. Pryor there. And there was Ross Talbot, do you remember him?

PPM: Yes, Ross Talbot

MW: Yeah, that's him over there

PPM: Yeah, there he is. 'Cause I was gonna say he... and that?

MW: That's Don Tabron. These are the two Detroit guys.

PPM: Yeah, right here

MW: Yeah. That's Donise, right there, and then...

PPM: Yeah, Donise, he married Aunt Tine's.

MW: Donise did, yeah. And there were some guys from Buxton? The Robbins brothers?

PPM: Robbins...

MW: These two guys are Robbins.

PPM: Yeah. 'Cause when I looked at this picture, I couldn't make them out

MW: They both look the same, don’t they?.

PPM: This is Mr. Pryor. Yeah

MW: And that's another Harding: that's Len Harding there.

PPM: Yeah, right here. And this is Cliff Olbey. And who is this?

MW: That's Ross Talbot.

PPM: Ross Talbot, yeah.

MW: But you remember them?

PPM: Yeah, I remember them. Yeah.

PPM: And they had—it was ice. We didn't have refrigerators, nothing like that. So they had to take the horses across the track. 'Cause I came home and bought Terry's house. I lived on Colborne. But my mother lived across from the Tech. They brought three houses for their girls. And the third house they had to build for her. Right there. But she didn't stay. She just lived until after the old people died. She lived a while there. And then one of the girls lived a while there and then they moved to Victoria Avenue. Yep. There. Didn't stay in the East End.

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Partial Transcript: PPM: And you knew about Judah's store?

MW: Where was that?

PPM: Right on the corner under Park East, going over the railroad tracks. Because in those days, Marie and Marion's father could keep pigs and chickens and horses in his barn. Right there. I can show you.

CAH: I think she wants this story for another time, Mother. She just wants to talk about the baseball and about your dad.

PPM: Oh, I see. Well, that was mostly…

MW: But still, even the neighbourhood is important. So any stories about the neighbourhood are actually…

PPM: Now the little boys down here, wasn't that?

MW: His name is Robinson. Jack Robinson. We don't know much about him, no

PPM: No.

MW: Do you remember him?

PPM: I remember is that Jackie?

MW: Yeah

PPM: Robinson. I'm trying to connect him with somebody, but I can't think right now. If it comes to me I'll let Carol Ann know.

CAH: Okay Mother

MW: Yeah, and we can always add it later.

MW: Right. Yeah. Was your dad involved in other sports? Like after the Chatham Coloured All Stars?

PPM: See my dad then got sick after they won that pennant. And we didn't do much of anything.

MW: So he didn't do much, right, right.

PPM: Now my mother lived longer ‘cause she was a little younger, see, than he was.

MW: Right

PPM: That's about it.

MW: Did either you or ...

PPM: Scott…where are the two kids that? One was a Park...

MW: Was there another bat boy?

PPM: Seems like there was another kid with him.

MW: There might have been, yeah.

PPM: It would come to me if someone could name it.

MW: Abie Scott?

PPM: Is Abie in there?

MW: No, he's not in there.

PPM: Abie was I guess, yes.

MW: He might have been.

PPM: He must have been that one I'm leaving out.

MW: It might have been him.

PPM: Because I'm almost lost sight of these at the top.

MW: Because he did play with these guys later I think, Abie Scott did.

MW: Did you or your sister ever play sports growing up? Did you ever play baseball?

PPM: No, I couldn't because I was kind of sickly

MW: Sure, right

PPM: going into womanhood

MW: Right

PPM: So I had to..

MW: What about your sister?

PPM: My sister was in everything. Running and ripping. Running with the Highgate boy. My mother would allow us to go out to a show on Friday night and see I would go to the show and not say anything. We're going Hilda and I. And here when I would sit a few seats behind Hilda here come this light man from the country and sit right beside my sister. See?

MW: Right

PPM: She was around somebody she had no business going around.

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Partial Transcript: MW: Right. Do you have any other memories of hanging out at Stirling Park or wanting to see other games apart from the Chatham Coloured All Stars? Did you remember going to other events?

PPM: No. 'Cause Industrial School was the entertainment place—they'd have concerts there and the dancehall—Now the dance hall is, oh the Lodge Hall. It's still next to the BME Church. But they’ve torn the BME Church down.

PPM: That's about it. Now the two boys from Detroit, there's Donise. Ross Talbot.

MW: You remember all of them.

PPM: Olbey boy

MW: Yeah

PPM: That's about it

MW: Actually that's good. I was going to ask you some final questions about in terms of the story of the Chatham Coloured All Stars, is this the story you think that more people should know about?

PPM: Well yes, this generation should know about. And remember there was no welfare in those days. You had to go to the police station. It was kind of embarrassing. Then they started the welfare.

MW: And this was in the Depression, you know? These guys played during the Great Depression and no money.

PPM: No television, nothing like that. You only had a theatre to go to. Or a baseball game. Now what else did they play? Something else. Ricket or cricket or something. Wasn't there something? Something called something like that?

CAH: I don't know.

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Partial Transcript: PPM: Well, these kids playing in Stirling Park and playing around kids. See? That started it. I don't remember anything. ‘Cause that Mr. Stirling was good to allow them to go in that park and play. He owned it, see?

MW: That's Archie Stirling.

PPM: Yep and he had the drug store on Park East.

CAH: So those boys just came from Detroit and were just randomly playing in Stirling Park? Is that how?

PPM: Yeah. That's how we got there. Mr. Stirling was very kind to let 'em. That was his park see?

CAH: I just wondered how your dad found out about them.

MW: The two guys, yeah.

PPM: Remember my dad worked for Mr. Johnson

CAH: Who was American

PPM: American. Owned the barber shop.

CAH: Okay. That makes sense Mother.

PPM: My dad could keep up with things like that you know.

CAH: So your dad—

PPM: Mr. Stirling allowed us, 'cause he really owned that

MW: Yeah. It was named after his father.

CAH: So that was the connection because your daddy's—the one that owned that place—was an American and he found out about these boys in the States.

PPM: Yes.

CAH: And your dad brought them here.

PPM: And he brought 'em

CAH: That's the connection.

MW: I also read somewhere that your father was also involved in coaching another team that existed in the 1920s called the Chatham Giants. So you probably wouldn't remember that because you were probably only very very little. But I read, it was a newspaper article, and it said that your dad was the coach. So this was a pre-Chatham Coloured All Stars team.

PPM: He must have been really young then.

MW: Yeah, he would have been.

PPM: See I wouldn't know.

MW: So he'd already established, he was a baseball person even before the All Stars came along.

CAH: That's huge Mother

CAH: But your daddy was a manager, right?

PPM: Yeah.

MW: Yeah. Manager, but the previous team he coached.

PPM: My mother would only say, "Joe, now that's enough of that."

MW: I can see that. Especially with a family

PPM: So well I'm sorry I don't have any more.

MW: No, this is great.

CAH: Amazing

MW: This is really great.

PPM: Nice you brought her here. The Judah girl, her father owned the store on Park Street.

MW: No, this is really great

CAH: Mother, you know I never get tired of your stories

PPM: I'm trying to find out is, was Ida—

PPM: The only hair place was over the store at Mr. Judah's. His daughter. Alberta. Was a hairdresser. And she had learned all this in Detroit.

MW: Ohh that's interesting

PPM: Especially about doing our hair, see what I mean? I often wonder—I haven't heard—she lived on, out there, out by where I lived. Right off Tarmin. Now.

CAH: Oh.

PPM: Ida Judah and Dorothy.

CAH: Is that Grand River?

PPM: I don't know where Dorothy lived. She was the one that talked all the time. Talk talk talk

CAH: There's a lot of that around...

PPM: Don't tell me nothing about this. One of them you know. I just think 'cause Hilda and her talking to the Judahs.

Now Alberta went on and was a hairdresser and learned over there and Alberta Judah did hair and they lived over the store on...I must drive down there sometime and see it.

CAH: Just to see it Mother. You're absolutely right.

PPM: Is that store still there?

CAH: Yes. Well, the building is, but they've converted it.

PPM: There's no grocery store, is there?

CAH: No.

PPM: No. 'Cause Ida and Dorothy worked in there at the grocery store.

CAH: I think they converted it to a duplex now

PPM: Ida lived out there on the west side. 'Cause I went to her house one time. Ida Judah.

CAH: Ida Judah. I don't know about that—oh I've got the wrong Judah.

MW: How do you spell that? Is it J-U-D-A-H?

PPM: Yeah, that's Judah

MW: Okay, that's good to know. And do you have any other memories about your father that you'd like to share? Or growing up in the East End?

PPM: No, nothing. His mother was... I never knew my grandfather. By adoption.

MW: Right, right

PPM: So when we brought her she was wearing long dresses all that. Mama brought her out of that house. But she had to go back. So she went back to her house, last house where the water fountain is. Where the train stops there. And gets their water. My grandmother. The Franklins lived right across. They were real poor. No welfare in them days. It was terrible. You had to go to the police station to get the help. Unless some white churches would help people. And there was white and coloured that way, in that they just needed help. There was no factories in my day. Nothing like that for them to work at. Poor white people, poor coloured people had a time. Who was it? Quit saying that Pauline, I said to somebody, "Quit saying that." Because they didn't call them Black in our day.

CAH: No, you called them coloured, Mother.

PPM: It's just coloured people. You know?

CAH: Nobody should be telling you how to say it.

MW: Yeah, that's fine yeah.

CAH: Not at 96.

MW: You can say what you like.

[all laugh]

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